Ian Nockolds: “I’m delighted to welcome back to the Toolstation Western League podcast, George McCaffery, the Fixture Secretary of the Toolstation Western League. George, thanks very much for taking the time to speak to us. We are here to discuss matters of promotion and relegation; we are getting to the pointy end of the season. And I think what we’ll do is start at the very top and we’ll work our way down. So, what can you tell us about how promotion is going to work, out of the Premier Division?”

George McCaffery: “When I do mention teams, it will be in accordance with their current position in the league table.”

IN: “So, it’s in for indicative purposes?”

GM: “Absolutely. So currently, in first position, we have Tavistock. They would get automatic promotion to the Southern League Division One South. I was going to say to join Plymouth Parkway, but there’s every possibility that Plymouth Parkway are involved in the play-offs, and they will be moving up as well. So, good luck to them.

“So, Tavistock currently would be promoted, and Exmouth would then take part in a play-off match. And that play-off match is based on the fact that they would play a team from the Southern League Division One South, so we’re looking at either Mangotsfield or Cinderford there. And again, you can hear the hesitation in my voice purely because the Southern League Division One South and our Premier Division are both operating with nineteen teams.

“Now, the FA have informed us that we will return to twenty teams during the summer. But what they haven’t done is told us how they’re going to achieve that. Will it affect the play-off situations? We don’t know. So, we’ve just got to wait and see, so everything that we’re discussing here is on the pretence that we will go with the normal protocols. Any movement after that would be a bonus. So, that would be Tavistock automatic and Exmouth in the playoff situation, potentially against Mangotsfield or Cinderford.

IN: “Is there a scenario in which the points per game calculation could come into play? Which would mean that perhaps the team in second place in our Premier Division wouldn’t necessarily need to compete in the play-offs, or is that a fait accompli?”

GM: “No, it’s in there because of the numbers – we’ve got eight step four divisions. And then we’ve got the sixteen step five divisions beneath that, and they want thirty-two. But again, I believe that’ll come in if we have to balance out the number of teams. And I’m sorry for the confusion, but that’s where we are at the moment.”

IN: “So, if we look at the other end of the table, and I’m minded of the answer that you gave a few moments ago on the number of teams, of course nineteen in our Premier Division, but what do we know about relegation from our Premier Division?”

GM: “Well, the current criteria is that the bottom two clubs should be relegated, so that would be Bridport and Ashton and Backwell currently. So, that’s what we’ve got to plan for, and we will see what happens there. Obviously, Bridport have had a very tough season and we have to give them credit for carrying on and they’ve done so well in achieving what they have with the restrictions they’ve had placed upon them. So, we wish them well for the future and hopefully we’ll see them back in the Premier Division next season, the season after so they can bounce back up. But again, we’ve just got to wait and see what the FA do about that. But currently, Ashton and Backwell and Bridport would be relegated.”

IN: “And do we have a feel for whether they would be relegated to our First Division or whether they could potentially go elsewhere?”

GM: “That’s one thing that we, again, don’t know because the clubs go into a pool and then get allocated to the most geographically based. So, it depends on what the FA’s requirement is for how clubs get moved into divisions. So yes, is there a possibility that Bridport could come to our Division One? Yes, but they could also go into Southwest Peninsular East. And the same with Ashton and Backwell, they could come to us. You would like to think they’ll go into Division One, but they could also move into the Hellenic, we don’t know.”

IN: “So, if we then look at the First Division, what’s the situation with promotion from the First Division?”

GM: “It’s slightly different as we’re all aware in that, because this is where the pyramid breaks up, we have seventeen divisions, because they split the South West Peninsula a few years ago. And so, the special dispensation, what they do is they say that the champions of the Peninsula East and Peninsula West will be promoted to our Premier Division. So currently, that would be Falmouth from the West, and Okehampton from the East, although obviously Torpoint are knocking on the door with games in hand, but as they say, ‘points on the board, please.’ So currently, it’s Okehampton. Those two clubs, or the two champions, would be automatically promoted, no other clubs are considered for a play-off situation. That leaves fifteen places because the champions of the other fifteen divisions get automatic promotion. So, for us, that would be Sherborne. So, we now have seventeen clubs for promotion, and we need fifteen more. And how do they get them? They get them through the play-offs. And so, if you look at our Division One, the play-offs currently, you will have second playing fifth, that would be Welton hosting Radstock -

IN: “Oh, Coalfield Classico!”

GM: “Absolutely. And not too far away is Warminster versus Wincanton. So, two local derbies there, really, that are going to create a lot of interest, if that’s how the season finishes. And the aim would be that they would be played on the Tuesday, Wednesday in the first week of May. And then the winner of those two games would then play the final play-off on Saturday, 7th May. The home team being the one - the most senior club.”

IN: “Right. And does that also mean that - because you mentioned that Welton would play Radstock, at the moment as things stand, that means the game will be played at Welton Rovers?”

GM: “Welton Rovers, yes, and it goes in order in points per game and all of that but when you look at the points per game for the clubs; Sherborne is 2.4, Welton is 2.2, Warminster is 2.1, Wincanton is 2.1, Radstock is 1.7. So, their league tables are reflecting on the points per game table, so we wouldn’t see any anomalies there currently. But we still have a few games to go yet.”

IN: “So, we’re now going to look at the other end of the table, I have to declare an interest in this. What do we know about relegation from the First Division?”

GM: “Well, again, the regulations state that the three bottom clubs - and the important word here is ‘liable’ - or liable to be relegated. And so, we’re looking currently at Devizes, Bishops Lydeard, and then Bristol Telephones. And again, when you look at points per game, they’re in the same position on points per game anyway, so there’s no change. And again, it’s dependent on clubs being available to come up from the feeder leagues, and we do have some that have applied, but again, that’s all with the FA, and we have to wait and see. I know John Pool, our Chairman, and Allan Skuse, our Grading Officer, have been working with quite a few clubs, and the Western League are very, very keen to support clubs, given them as much information and support as they need to actually achieve their aims. Now, whether that’s to come into the Western League or even to get promoted out of the Western League, it doesn’t matter. We want to help them improve their facilities and improve football at their local team. So, we’re looking at those three potentially being relegated, but again, we also have the situation where, because we’re balancing out back to twenty, with our First Division at twenty-one, we don’t know how they’re going to do it. So, there’s no prediction there at all.”

IN: “I appreciate you haven’t got a crystal ball, George. I think that’s a very important point to make - but I know for people who’ve been following Western League football for a long time, obviously, we haven’t traditionally been in a position where we’ve needed to relegate teams out of the First Division. But it feels to me that, you know, forget COVID, we are in a slightly different situation than we have been for a while, that’s the way it feels to me. Because not only do we have twenty-one teams in our First Division, but we also have this sort of continuation of the restructuring process going on. So, part of what we’ve talked about so far in this interview, is not just teams being elevated and relegated within the Western League, we’re actually talking about the potential for teams to be moved into other leagues, as well. So, with that in mind, with twenty-one teams in the First Division, do you think that it is likely that at least some clubs, or possibly even only a club, but do you think it’s likely that we will see relegation this season?”

GM: “I think it is likely with all those other factors taken into consideration, but it’s the fact that you’ve got credible clubs sat there in their feeder leagues waiting and wanting promotion to our Division One. So yeah, I think that more than any other season, this season I think we’re likely to lose clubs, unfortunately. But we would want to see them come back, you know? And then, of course, there are other criteria. As I said, we work with clubs in supporting them, but the biggest factor for promotion is - have they got the appropriate grade? The ground grade for their ground? If they don’t, then they’re not suitable for promotion. And that’s really down to the club’s working with the grading officer, that support has been going on, and I’m aware now that the FA have got the final table. So, we would see what would happen there.

“One of the other factors is the lateral movement, you know, we have clubs in our Premier Division that have applied for lateral movement across the Hellenic League. Completely outside our discussion options, and nothing we can do about it, if that’s the way that they wish to take their team forward, that’s their choice. But again, that’s purely down to the FA and their decision-making process. Obviously, we’re aware of the teams that got laterally moved last season. Not necessarily happy at that level, I mean, a couple of them are doing really well, they’re in promotion or play-off positions and we wish them well. Others want to come back, but whether or not that’s feasible, again, as you say, the restructuring ... This was just the first step; more is going to happen.

“We’ve just got to wait and see what the FA come up with. Trust me, I’m continually doing reports to send up to the FA to say, ‘look, this is happening. This has happened. We did warn you that this would happen.’ We had Helston having to come up to Cadbury Heath last Tuesday, and Keynsham at Mousehole. It’s not particularly favourable, but I’ve worked really hard this season in trying to ensure that all long-distance travel was maintained on a Saturday.

“But when we lost the games due to the bad weather, during the three-storm weekend, I had nowhere to put them. We already have one club doing four games in one week. We’ve got several clubs that are quite close ... not most clubs, several clubs, have three games a week until the end of the season now. So, they’re playing Saturday-midweek-Saturday for the rest of the season, to get the games in. If they lose any further games, then they have to go to a Thursday. I have no option. And we tried our best, I think we’ve done reasonably well.

“There is an anomaly out there, that people who are into their fixtures will note, that we were told that we had to clear the 30th of April because that was the date of the play-off, and we had a full programme. So, we cleared it and moved all the games forward which again impacted severely on our available dates. But Brislington were one of those clubs, they’ve got to get down to Millbrook, again a 128-mile trip midweek, and we’ve got dispensation from the FA, so that they can play on Saturday, 30th purely because neither club is involved or impacting promotion or relegation. And that’s the only reason why their fixture is really outside the end of the season, if you look at the 23rd as the final date.”

IN: “One final question for you, and this is the opportunity for the listeners to get their diaries out and a pencil. Can we run through the dates? You have mentioned them during the interview, but if we start off - what is the date, we believe, when the step four-five play-off will take place?”

GM: “That’s going to be Saturday, 30th April. So, that was our final weekend of the season, and that’s why it was cleared. But it’s just a pity they didn’t tell us early doors, but hey-ho.”

IN: “And I I’m right in saying, aren’t I, that actually that will be played at the step four ground?”

GM: “Yes, it will be, yeah.”

IN: “And what about our First Division play-offs?”

GM: “Right, our First Division play-offs, as we’ve identified, will be the 3rd or 4th of May, the Tuesday or Wednesday, depending on what the home Club hosts. And then the final will be on Saturday, 7th. And then following on from that, Saturday, 14th will be the Les Phillips Cup Final, which will be held at Wells City. And we would like to thank Wells for offering to support the League and host what, hopefully, will be a very good game.”

IN: “Absolutely. Well, I’d like to thank you, as always George, for taking the time to speak to us. I know you’re always very candid or certainly as candid as you can be. “So, hopefully, this interview will have helped clarify some of these matters. I’m sure that there’ll be plenty more water to go under the promotion and relegation bridge, but I think we’ve got a bit of a handle on what’s going to be going on now.”

GM: “Okay, thank you very much and good luck to all the teams for the rest of the season, wish you well.”